Doing Marriage with Intention w/ Steve & Twyla Lee - Ep. 132

Dr. Steve & Twyla Lee

…with an emotional Kensi Techau Duszynski upon graduating from Focus Leadership Institute, with the Lees as her first marriage and family professors in the fall of 2010.

SHOW NOTES:

Join me in conversation with Steve and Twyla Lee as we talk about their 47 years of marriage experience, plus 30 years of professional experience as Christians who work in the social sciences. As my first marriage and family studies professors, I had the privilege of learning from them personally and professionally as well. Today, they work with premarital couples all over the US at intentionalrelationships.org.

The Emergence of Complementarity and the Love-Based Marriage - Ep. 131

The Love-Based Marriage

SHOW NOTES:

Did you know that the concept of marrying for love is only 200-300 years old? In this episode, we trace the love-based marriage back to its roots in the Enlightenment. Here, we’ll discover the emergence of complementarity as a way for society to promote social order and marriage cohesion in this brave new world, which rocked the five millennia -long foundation of the patriarchal structuring of marriage, family, and society. We’ll also explore the idea that while secular culture abandoned complementarity within gender hierarchy after the 1950s, certain parts of the evangelical church locked it in instead of envisioning a better way forward for Christian couples and families in the 20th-21st centuries.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome back to the Brave Marriage Podcast, a podcast for couples who want to grow as individuals, do marriage with intention, and live mutually empowered, purposeful lives. You are listening to season 2, where we are beginning a conversation around marriage, mutuality, and gender roles. 

Last week, we took a look at marriage in the 1950s, because to me, it sort of marks the decade where culture went one way and Christians went another when it comes to marriage, family, and sexuality. Many Evangelical Christians said, “the 1950s align more closely with our moral values and our holiness traditions so we’ll hold onto that good, thank you very much,” while secular culture said, “in a world where women and racial minorities have more rights than ever and are still working toward a more equitable world, the 1950s are regressive and oppressive, so we’ll keep working in the decades ahead to address the bad, thank you very much.” …I have to wonder, what kind of world could we create if we could tolerate the tension and work to hold onto the good and address the bad at the same time?

But to be honest with you, I don’t think either side has figured out the healthiest way to marriage, family, and sex in a postmodern society. It seems like secular culture is working toward new ideals, however healthy or misguided, while conservative Christianity is working to reverse the present by trying to hold onto the past. 

But here’s the piece I think that both camps are missing, and why we haven’t quite figured out how to do marriage, family, and sexuality in a way that’s productive to society as it is today, and it’s this: We forget how new the construct of the love-based marriage is—the love-based marriage meaning, this romanticized way of viewing marriage like we do today and the complementary structuring of gender roles. And this model of marriage, is honestly, still in its infancy, or at least, its toddler years, and so I think it will take us more time to develop an understanding of marriage, in general, and of Christian marriage, in particular, that resonates with 21st century couples.

So on this episode, we’re looking back even further than the 1950s to see that the nuclear family, along with its breadwinning husband and homemaking wife actually marked the end of the Western social experiment in which couples across the board, secular and Christian alike, tried to maintain traditional, hierarchical, split-sphered gender roles once love became the basis for marriage. 

As we discussed in episode 98, entitled: Your Spouse is Not Responsible for Your Happiness, marrying for love is a concept as new as the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment was a period in history, about 200-300 years ago, where philosophers, culture-makers, and eventually, the everyday couple looked to reason, progress, and individualism as their guiding principles. And when progress and individualism became values over and above stability and the common good, people’s ideas about marriage began to transition, too. Prior to the Enlightenment, marriage was collectively thought of as a social responsibility. But during and then especially, after the Enlightenment, people began to see marriage as an individual right. Thus, one’s marriage partner became a personal choice, rather than an arrangement and commitment made for the greater social good. 

And this new love-based marriage was really disorienting and destabilizing to the way society had previously been structured. If you can wrap your mind around this, never before in history had people married for love. They’d only married for social order, social standing, political gain, and economic stability—so if love occurred in a marriage, it was a happy accident, a byproduct of a good match all-around, or the result of genuinely committed Christians who adhered to Paul’s radical teachings at the time to mutually love and submit to one another. But romantic love had nothing to do with the purpose of the marriage itself during that time. That time being, the thousands and thousands of years before the Enlightenment, the Victorian Era, and the Industrial Revolution. In fact, when you look at marriage throughout history, many people found romantic love outside of their marriages, instead of within it, just to show you how new the blending of romantic love within a committed, faithful marriage is. So the idea of choosing a marriage partner yourself, and choosing that partner based on love and emotional fulfillment was still in its infancy during that time, a grand social experiment like the world had never seen before. 

And as you can imagine, some lawyers, politicians and others who held up society at the time were freaking out. They were afraid of what these marital changes and individual values would do to society. Because if hierarchical marriage and marriage structures had previously been the bedrock of a stable society, and now, people were marrying for love, an extremely unstable emotion, then understandably, questions emerged like, what will keep a couple’s personal whims from pulling their marriage and subsequently, from pulling society apart, as the thinking went? If people start choosing their marriage partners based on really fickle ideas, like love and personal happiness, then what will keep them choosing each other when romantic love fades and real life hits? How is a society supposed to maintain social order if couples no longer personally value commitment and stability? And if couples marry for love, then what social constraints are there to keep couples, families, and societies together, as before? When individualism runs counter to the permanence of marriage, and equality runs counter to the long-held social order, how can we promote the stabilization of marriage relationships? 

So it’s here, in this era, only 200-300 years ago, that we begin to see the idea of complementarity set within gender hierarchy emerge. Complementarity is the idea that men and women are two halves of a whole, without whom each gender would be incomplete. 

Prior to the emergence of complementarian teaching within gender hierarchy, men and women lived in a world where gender roles were a given. Everyone lived in a male-centric society, and women were long thought of as the lesser, inferior sex. Thus, there was no need to promote gender-based complementarity; there was only the need to uphold it by law to keep individual households and the social order intact. 

For example, for thousands of years, under the law, wives were to defer to husbands as lord and master. Husbands had final decision-making power, and rights to women, property, sex, and the like. And even though we’ve come a long way, we still see the lasting effects of this male-centric society in the law, in the church, and in cultural attitudes. For example, until 1979, the state of Louisiana still upheld head and master laws, which said that husbands had the final say on all household and property decisions, and could do whatever he wanted with their joint property, without his wife’s knowledge or consent. And as late as 1993, marital rape was still legal and unpunishable by law in Oklahoma and North Carolina, whereas other states took to repealing the allowance of marital rape from the 1970s on.

So before the Enlightenment, when laws like this were the norm, and not the exception, complementarity was not needed to pacify men and women because a patriarchal society was assumed, rather than challenged. 

But starting around the 18th century, several philosophical ideals began to converge to challenge this male headship structure, like the value of personal choice, individualism, love-based marriage and with that, the desire to marry for love and intimacy, not just commitment and stability.  

The fear then for traditionalists was that equality paired with individualism would lead men and women to make choices based on their own personal, private good, rather than the good of society as a whole, and that these things might even lead men and women to believe that they didn’t need each other, that they might find they were fine on their own instead of fulfillment in marriage and family, which couples in the Enlightenment now sought. Articulating some of this fear in 1767, Dutch journalist and preacher Cornelius van Engelen wrote: “Were a woman to have the same authority as a man, or a man the same kind-heartedness as a woman, the former possessing a man’s courage and resolve, the latter women’s tenderness and charm, then they would be independent of one another,” (Coontz, 2005). 

So complementarity seemed to address at least growing concerns about individualism. And the gender hierarchy already embedded into culture allowed for complementarity to do its work concerning gender equality in marriage. 

As Stephanie Coontz writes in her book, Marriage: A History: 

“At the beginning of the 19th century, the doctrine that men and women had innately different natures and occupied separate spheres of life seemed to answer these questions without unleashing the radical demands [of love, individualism, and equality] that had rocked society in the 1790s. 

The doctrine of separate spheres held back the inherently individualistic nature of the “pursuit of happiness” by making men and women dependent upon each other and insisting that each gender was incomplete without marriage. It justified women’s confinement to the home without having to rely on patriarchal assertions about men’s right to rule. Women would not aspire to public roles beyond the home because they could exercise their moral sway over their husbands and through them over society at large. Men were protecting women, not dominating them, by reserving political and economic roles for themselves.” (p. 176)

Okay, so this will be another episode for another time, but the idea of holding sway over one’s spouse is manipulation, not intimacy, and it’s also no different than the political marriages and power couples of the past. And then this idea that each gender is incomplete without the other reminds me of a few things: 1) Every 20th century Hollywood romance movie ever made. 2) Every Victorian era book ever written and then turned into a Hollywood movie. 3) This quote from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (1991): 

“The woman is the man’s helper. The man was not created to help the woman, but the reverse. Doesn’t this striking fact suggest that manhood and womanhood are distinct and non-reversible? Doesn’t this make sense if we allow that, while the man and the woman are to love each other as equals, they are not to love each other in the same way? The man is to love his wife by accepting the primary responsibility for making their partnership a platform displaying God’s glory, and the woman is to love her husband by supporting him in that godly undertaking.

So, was Eve Adam’s equal? Yes and no. She was his spiritual equal and, unlike the animals, “suitable for him.” But she was not his equal in that she was his “helper.” (Piper, Grudem, et. al, ch. 3, p. 91). 

And in upcoming episodes, we’re going to explore complementarian and egalitarian theology, and in a way where we get a sense of both perspectives, but at this point, I do want to distinguish between two things. There’s gender-based complementarity…and then there’s gender-based hierarchy. And like we said before, gender-based complementarity is not a problem. We are created male and female; we know this, we understand it. But want I want you to understand is that both gender-based complementarity and hierarchy are subtly baked into the cultural teachings of the 1800-1900s, and in many of the later Christian teachings in the late 1900s and early 2000s. And I want you to remember that complementarity within gender hierarchy is an idea that emerged in the Enlightenment as a way to address individualism and growing equality in a changing culture. It’s what led to husbands and wives occupying separate spheres in an Industrial society. And it’s what led to the model of the 1950s marriage and family—that as long as men stick to breadwinning and taking care of their wives and children, and as long as women stick to homemaking and taking care of their husbands and children, then together, but separately, and in love, we’ll each be doing our part to work for the collective good of marriage, family, and society. 

Yes, this was able to be achieved because of a decade of growth, wealth, and stability after the war, like we talked about last episode, but it was also the climax of an effort to help couples and families thrive in this brave new world of the love-based marriage, which was only about 150 years old at the time.

And on the surface, this seems sweet and true, because parts of it are. It seems like an honorable sentiment for those who’ve only ever seen themselves in that picture. And it sounded good to me on the surface up until I started diving deeply into this subject to entangle what’s true from what’s not in order to effectively and ethically help couples today who marry for love and who also desire to follow Christ.

And listen, I get the fears of the time, I do. I, by nature, am someone who is slow to change and slow to action, so I can even appreciate the train of thought that goes, “we’re just trying to apply responsible solutions and stave off progress too quickly in this life-altering, trajectory-changing reality we find ourselves in.” It’s just that I’ve lived on the other side of history long enough to realize that promoting marital hierarchy isn’t the only, or best way for that matter, to promote love and intimacy in marriage in our modern Western world where men and women’s rights are more equitable than ever before.  

As a systemically trained marriage and family therapist who’s worked with so many couples, I’ve watched this soul-mate, gender-based, hierarchical model for marriage breed enmeshment, dependence, resentment, manipulation, spiritual abuse, and the stalling of adult development, rather than life and health and wholeness.

But complementarity, in and of itself, is not an unbiblical idea. It’s when it’s paired with God-ordained hierarchy and extrabiblical gender roles that complementarity gets twisted into something that doesn’t work for so many people. 

And so it seems to me that our society’s second attempt at making hierarchical marriage work in the modern world, reached the peak of its relevance in the ‘50s and has been exposing its underbelly ever since.

It also seems to me that just because complementarity was the first solution applied to the love-based marriage and then taken on by the church, doesn’t mean it has to be the last—at least, in its culturally remnant form!

The conversation I’m trying to start for anyone willing to have it, is not about whether or not husbands should structure their marriages to have more traditional or equalitarian roles within their own home. And this isn’t about whether or not wives should stay at home or enter the workforce, because the privilege of living in a wealthy society with equal rights is that we can choose to do either, or both. This is a conversation about learning from history and taking a look at the recent past to see if we can’t discover a better, healthier, more life-giving way forward for couples, for families, for society, and for the church at large, the true family of God. 

Because as far as I can tell, when we look at and study the whole Bible as the inspired word of God as told through a primarily Jewish worldview in a middle Eastern context, what we see is God’s love for all of humanity, His rescue and restoration of the poor and the oppressed, and His desire for us as men and women, as husbands and wives, as children and adults, to all be one in Christ. And when we look at Jesus’ ministry and teachings on His coming kingdom, it seems to look far less like what we’re comfortable and familiar with, and far more like Jesus did—imagine that—when He came as King in the form of a baby, or when He revealed Himself first as the Son of God, not to the masses or spiritual elite, but to a marginalized woman at the well. When He served His disciples by washing their feet, or when He sacrificed himself all the way to the cross to demonstrate His Lordship over all the earth, His Headship over the church, and His Saving Power in our lives.

I’m hoping that us starting this conversation on marriage, mutuality, and gender roles, within an understanding of history—both recent history over the past 200-300 hundred years, as well as ancient history, in the context in which the Bible was written—that we’ll be able to get to Truth about marriage and mutuality and gender roles. That we’ll be able to take a look at the marriage education that emerged in the late 20th century and evaluate it based on Truth, and our understanding of its context, which we’ll do in upcoming episodes.

But before we get there, and before we get to an understanding of complementarian and egalitarian theology, I’ve had the privilege of sitting down with my first ever marriage and family professors, who have their own experience to share with us, their own understanding of how marriage education developed over their lifetime, and as professionals, and who just have a wealth of knowledge to share with us so I’m really excited for you to get to hear my conversation with them next time.

In the meantime, thank you for listening. I’m your host, Kensi Duszynski. Podcast editing is by Evan Duszynski. Music is by John Tibbs. We hope you have a great week, share this with someone, and we’ll talk to you again soon.

Citations from this Episode:

Coontz, S. (2005). Marriage, A History.

Piper, J., Grudem, W., et. al. (1991). Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

How the 1950s Defined Marriage as We Know It - Ep. 130

SHOW NOTES:

We’re starting this conversation with a little understanding of history, how the 1950s defined marriage and split-sphere gender roles as we know them today.

Together, we’ll consider this question: If Paul tells us in Romans 12:2 not to conform to the patterns of this world, then why does so much of what we’re taught today in the church reflect the culture of marriage in 1950s America rather than mirroring Christ?

Join Kensi Duszynski this fall as she facilitates a conversation around marital health, relational dynamics, and the proper place of gender roles in Christian marriage.

Conversations will take place biweekly.


FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome back to the Brave Marriage Podcast, a podcast for couples who want to grow as individuals, do marriage with intention, and live mutually empowered, purposeful lives. I’m Kensi Duszynski, a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified professional coach. And you are listening to episode 1 of season 2, where ready or not, like I said in the trailer, we will be diving into a conversation every other week around marriage, mutuality, and gender roles. 

I know we have some new folks listening, so just to give you a little bit of background on who it is you’re listening to, I am someone who grew up in the church in a small town in Kentucky. I felt called to ministry as a teenager, was commissioned in that calling by my church body, and have spent my vocational life pretty much ever since in marriage ministry, if you will, which for me, has taken the shape of becoming a licensed practitioner and working with married couples in the Bible Belt. I studied at Focus on the Family’s Leadership Institute in college, where I learned about what has come to be known as biblical manhood and womanhood, I graduated from Asbury University, where we talked a lot about the integration of psychology and theology, I attended Asbury Theological Seminary where I learned evidence-based practices of couples therapy, and then I worked toward my license as a MFT for four years after grad school. And I’m getting to the age now where I can look back on my reading and study of marriage over the past 15 years or so and compare it to what I’ve seen in my work with couples over the past 8 years or so, and see what is actually helpful and actually true when it comes to helping couples and what’s not. So season 2 is really a passion project for me to synthesize all these ideas, and I appreciate you coming along for the ride! 

As I’ve been thinking about where to start this series, I knew I couldn’t start with what’s good, what’s bad, and here’s why as a therapist, because I know, as someone who’s grown up in the Christian community, how deeply we hold some of our ideas about marriage and what it means to be a good husband or wife. I also know, having grown up in a rural area, that some can feel mistrusting of psychology and therapy and don’t even know how to conceptualize mental and emotional health as something as important as physical health. I know that when it comes to relationships, those of us who’ve grown up in conservative families and churches trust what we’ve been taught about marriage and gender roles there, even if we’ve also been influenced by the media and culture around us. 

So instead, I decided to start this conversation about marriage, mutuality, and gender roles with a little understanding of history. Because when we’re inside of a certain context, like right now, as we’re living through history, it can be hard to step outside of it, to take a look at it, to examine it, and to evaluate it based on its strengths and weaknesses. But personally, when I began to understand marriage in the context of history, that’s the place where I was finally able to assimilate all these ideas and come to my understanding of what I’ve seen in the church, versus what I’ve seen in marriage therapy literature, versus what I’ve seen in my office. 

So here’s what we’re gonna do: In order to examine marriage as we understand it today, we’re gonna start by taking a look at marriage in a decade before most of you listening were born: the 1950s. The first time I ever thought about marriage throughout history was in 2010 at the Focus Leadership Institute, where I had my first marriage and family studies course. Our professors, as kind of a warm up exercise, had written each decade from the 20th century on a piece of poster board, and spaced them out around the perimeter of the room. And they instructed us to go and stand in front of the decade in which we thought we’d most want to live, if we could—to choose the decade that we thought had the best that marriage and family life had to offer. 

Okay, so there were 44 of us, and as 20-somethings who grew up in the ‘90s, most people ended up in front of the 1970s posters or later. I, on the other hand, had grown up watching reruns of I Love Lucy, Happy Days, and the movie remake of Leave It to Beaver, so I stood in front of the 1950s poster, along with one other classmate who chose that decade because she liked the idea of wearing pearls and poodle skirts, that was her reasoning. But when asked why I chose that decade, I said something about how it seemed like the 1950s held all these moral values that growing up in the church, I’d learned were a part of Christian living. And so, from what I’d seen on TV, it seemed like the 1950s were a pretty ideal place for Christian families to live.

…And that’s when I got my first education on just how little I understood about the history of Christian marriage in America. 

So I would like to do a little exercise with you. I’d like you to use your imagination to travel back in time with me to the mid-1950s. Eisenhower is President of the United States, and we’re about 20 years removed from the end of the Great Depression, and about 10 years post-World War II. Compare that with the distance we are today from 9/11 and the recession of 2008. So understandably, between Truman and Eisenhower’s presidencies, lots of effort has gone into re-stabilizing society and the economy upon the return of millions of WWII veterans. This effort is seen in government programs like the GI Bill, which provided unemployment aid, education, and mortgage assistance to millions of American veterans. It’s seen in strengthening the image of America as a strong, militarized nation, armed with a capitalist economy and Christian family values. And it’s seen in the emergence of the ideal American family: the white, middle-class nuclear family with a breadwinning husband who works outside the home, and a stay-at-home wife, who works within the home to keep her family strong. 

Can you bring to mind the image of Rosie the Riveter? Well, if she was the model picture of a woman in the 1940s, a woman who stepped up and served and worked to aid in the war effort on behalf of her country, then upon WWII veterans’ return, Rosie the Riveter was replaced with the image of June Cleaver as the ideal 1950s woman. 

So imagine you’re a married person doing life in this 1950s world. Some societal and economic stabilization has been achieved, and if you’re white and above the poverty line, you’re enjoying the benefits of this in a disproportionate scale to your black neighbors. I say this to indicate here that many black Americans weren’t granted equal access to things like VA mortgage loans or suburban housing due to some legalese in the GI Bill that placed federal benefits in the hands of the state, many of whom were still operating under Jim Crow laws and racial segregation in the south. 

But on the whole, the economy is flourishing such that compared to what’s been called “the prosperous twenties,” the middle class in America has nearly doubled, as has your discretionary income. In the mid-1950s, this means wealth building, again, especially if you’re white and benefiting from government programs, and extra money for things like houses with separate bedrooms for everyone, a second car, a new TV, and modern kitchen appliances.

So you’ve just endured a few decades there of recession, of war, and of hardship. And in a matter of ten years after the war, you find yourself the recipient of a quaint little home in the new suburbs, with a church of your denomination not too far away. You can now rest easy in the assurance that you live in a safe, Christian nation, which you’re reminded of every time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, which now, includes the phrase “one nation under God,” or every time you spend your new discretionary income because of the recent addition of “In God We Trust” that’s been added to all US currency. I mean, compared to what you’ve known, this is ideal, this is the good life. This is the epitome of the American dream. 

And as a middle-class couple living in the 1950s, you find yourself enamored with a couple of things: First of all, new and improved home technologies that you can now afford, like the washing machine, an electric dryer, a refrigerator/freezer combo, the vacuum cleaner, all things that promise to make your home life more convenient. K, this is like the Alexa or the Roomba of the 1950s. And on the topic of home life, the second thing you find yourself all consumed by is how to construct this nuclear family ideal that you’re seeing everywhere in mass media and pop culture. From TV shows and magazine ads, to family experts and marriage advice columns, it seems like all efforts are being aimed at solidifying and reinforcing rigid male-female gender roles. 

From Hoover vacuums, you see ads that read, “She’ll be happier with a Hoover.” From a refrigerator company, you see a blindfolded mom holding the hand of a child while her husband presents her new fridge. The copy reads, “The surprise of her life…and the best!” From Edward Podolsky’s book, Sex Today in Wedded Life, you read, “Be a good listener, let your husband tell you all his troubles and yours will seem trivial in comparison. Don't bother him with petty troubles and complaints when he comes home from work. Let him relax before dinner. Discuss family problems after the inner man has been satisfied. Remember your most important job is to build up and maintain his ego; morale is a woman's business." 

From his advice column, “Can This Marriage Be Saved?” in the Ladies Home Journal, Paul Popenoe maintained that a husband’s job was to work outside the home and provide for his family, while a woman’s job was to keep her husband happy, faithful, and successful at work. A man’s behavior was thought not to reflect his character, but to offer a window inside his home as to what type of woman he was married to, and what type of home environment was contributing to his behavior and success at work. 

And a question I have is, why? Why were so many in the 1950s invested in creating and maintaining split-sphered gender roles? 

Well, from a socio-ecological perspective, if you’re trying to restabilize a society that’s been marked for decades by men leaving the workforce and going to war, and women entering the workforce with higher paying wages than they’ve known before, and then suddenly, both men and women are trying to find their place again in the midst of a culture that looks quite different from the world before they left, then the way to give men and women a sense of purpose and patriotism after World War II is to promote these split-sphere gender roles as a way to continue to serve your country, especially during the Cold War, is by keeping the family strong. For men, the hope was re-entry into the workplace and back into their seat of influence, as before. For women, the hope was that the preoccupation with, and distraction of domesticity, would soften the blow of what they were losing by focusing on all they stood to gain: namely, a happy home, a happy husband, and the social rewards of playing by the rules and conforming to cultural marital scripts. 

Back to the 21st century and messages we’ve received in the church: What messages like this linger? Does this advice seem absurd to you? Or does it seem in line with what you’ve been taught or internalized somewhere along the way? 

Now, I want you to time travel back with me all the way to the early church in the 1st century, about twenty years after Jesus’ death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven. Imagine the legacy left by Jesus in the Greco-Roman world. Imagine trying to understand how to live according to the legacy of a man, who was God, who literally died for your eternal salvation but before that, challenged culture and the status quo by bringing life and health and wholeness and dignity to men, women, rich, poor, Jews, Gentiles, and the most marginalized in society. Imagine His influence as you consider this line which Paul writes to the Christians in Rome in Romans 12:2: “Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.” The New Living Translation translates it this way: “Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.” 

So my last question for you is, if we’re not to conform to the patterns of this world or copy its behavior, then why does so much of what we’re taught today in the church reflect the culture of 1950s America rather than mirroring Christ? 

If you have thoughts, questions you’d like to eventually have answered on the podcast, or monologues you need to get off your chest, know that I can relate and I would love to hear from you. You’re welcome to email your innermost thoughts to kensi@bravemarriage.com. I’d really like to engage with you and hear where you are and what you’re taking from this season along the way. 

That’s it for today on the Brave Marriage Podcast. I’m your host, Kensi Duszynski. Podcast editing is by Evan Duszynski. Thank you so much for listening and for your interest in learning. If you’ve enjoyed this episode and are excited for this series, please share it with someone else you think might be interested. I’ll be back in 2 weeks to pick up where we left off and I look forward to sharing with you again soon.  

RESOURCES:

Marriage, A History, Stephanie Coontz

Jesus and John Wayne, Kristin Kobes Du Mez

Welcome Back to Season 2 on Marriage, Mutuality, and Gender Roles

Brave Marriage Podcast

EPISODE SHOW NOTES:

BMP is back for a second season! Join Kensi Duszynski this fall as she facilitates a conversation around marital health, relational dynamics, and the proper place of gender roles in Christian marriage. Conversations will take place biweekly.


EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome back to the Brave Marriage Podcast! A podcast for couples who want to grow as individuals, do marriage with intention, and live mutually empowered, purposeful lives! It has been a while, I know, and I can’t believe how quickly this year has gone by. 

If you’re listening to this, you’re probably already subscribed to the podcast so you most likely already know that I took some time off this year. But just in case you’re new here, here’s kind of the deal: At the beginning of the year, I decided to take a semester off of the podcast in order to teach a counseling class at the college level. And this felt like a really great opportunity, like a growing experience for me, but one I knew I would need to devote time and attention to, seeing as how I’d never taught a day in my life before that! I don’t love public speaking. I’ve pushed myself to do it over the years, because I know it’s important to my calling, but I’ve certainly never lectured or taught for hours on end before that, so I just knew something had to give in order for me to engage that new role well. 

But here’s kind of what’s transpired since. And I want you to know that I’ve really been trying to wrestle down this first episode back. I apologize for the lengthy explanation, as I’m sure some of you would prefer that I just get back to the content, which I totally understand. But after trying to figure out how to jump right in and pick up where we left off, the fact of the matter is, I can’t—and I need to explain why. 

So during class last semester, we were able to have some really engaging discussions around how counseling helps us become healthier as humans and as Christians, and how we integrate those two things, because all of us, no matter how long we’ve known the Lord, still grew up in families, churches, and communities that shaped us for better or worse. You know, they shaped our personalities, the ways we learned to interact with the world, they shaped the skills we have or don’t have to cope and to engage in healthy relationships. 

And of course, in my line of work, I’ve thought about these things for years, having processed my own family background, church background, and context in which I grew up. But what was so fascinating for me to see through teaching was my students on the very front end of this processing. Still discovering who they are, in light of who they want to be, and wrestling through questions around faith and counseling and psychology and theology and their future roles as Christian counselors. 

And it just so happened that as we were talking about all these things, a few professors got together during that same semester to host a series on purity culture. So I facilitated a short discussion with my students in a conversation around this topic, thinking surely, with them being ten years younger than me, that they’d grown up with healthier views than my generation did on sexuality, purity, and gender roles in marriage. But you guys, I was shocked at some of the messaging they’d grown up with, just some really unhealthy views, although maybe I shouldn’t have been so surprised, given the conversations my husband, Evan, has had in working with college students.

And so, as you all already know, I am deeply passionate about helping others learn how to do marriage relationships well. And what I’m seeing—both in the culture at large and in the classroom (you know it’s like, once you see it, you can’t look away)— is this subtly, yet deeply distorted way of looking at Christian marriage and of talking about marriage and sex in the church. In a way that doesn’t lead to life and freedom and valuing each other as we should, but instead leads to dysfunction and bondage and diminishing each other. And that’s not who we are as Christians, that’s not who we were created to be in the imago Dei, that’s not what the family of God is supposed to be, and yet, the way we continue to talk about marriage, unthinkingly, just repeating what we’ve heard before, it’s actually continuing the perpetuation of these relational ideals that are not good for everyone across the board. And end up landing twenty-something year olds in my classroom and couples of all ages in my counseling practice having to work through damage done to their relationships and to their psyches sometimes by the church when the church should be the place where we find the most healing and health and help for our relationships. 

So clearly, all of this has led me to the inability to podcast about anything other than this topic for a while, this topic of healthy marital dynamics and our callings and roles as Christian couples. Until I’ve said all I’ve needed to say on it, until you’ve said all you need to think and say on it, and until the conversation around marriage and gender roles in the church looks more hopeful and creative than it does rigid and oppressive. 

A few things have led me to this place: The first is, living on a Christian college campus for the past 4 years. We’ve seen what’s become healthier when it comes to living and relating in Christian community, but we’ve also seen some of the same old, unhealthy teachings from decades past just continue to live in the zeitgeist of the Christian community, and not only that, but we’ve also seen some really unhealthy things strengthen in the Church that are anything but Christlike. So there’s that, and then there’s this: I’ve really felt led over the past couple of years to speak more courageously to some of these topics, but to this point, have failed to do so. I’ve resisted and avoided, quite honestly, talking about these things publicly. I made excuses, all wrapped up in fear because who wants to give a minority voice to the majority Christian culture, right? Certainly, not me. Certainly not me. 

But then after my class, after these conversations (and a slew of others over the past few years), I just knew I couldn’t not address the roles of men and women in marriage anymore, and how our understanding as Christians of these topics affects our marriages, because it affects our mental and emotional health, and therefore, our relational health! 

When I first started the podcast, one of the very first questions I received was, “Which is a better model for Christian marriage: complementarianism or egalitarianism?” 

And if you’ve engaged with that question at all, you know it’s not a small question to answer

But at the time, applying my counselor brain to this podcast: I knew I hadn’t yet built a relationship with you guys to be so bold as to initiate that conversation—that’s not really my style of relating. The other part is, beyond my own personal experience with both positions, I hadn’t given that question three years of deep thought, as I have at this point in my professional journey. When I started the podcast, I knew I wanted to be practically helpful to you all, offering short teachings and action steps that would make an immediate difference in marriages for the better. 

And I think, at least, to some degree, this podcast has accomplished that, as you guys have told me or left ratings and reviews saying, “I’ve never heard some of these things before, I’ve never heard marriage or sex talked about in such a positive light in the Christian community.” Not that it’s not out there—there are so many people doing really good work right now around these topics in the church. People I actually hope to talk to in the future on this podcast, so prayers that I’d be able to make some of those connections. But the thing is, the thing I can’t skirt around any longer is that, to those of you for whom this podcast feels different than what you’ve been taught elsewhere, that’s because it is! This isn’t what so many of us are taught! And I think it’s time that I make this teaching even more explicit for you. I want to give you understanding and language that you haven’t had before to engage these conversations in your own home, in your church, and in your community, if you find relational dynamics and gender roles in marriage relevant to your own life, to what you’re passing on to the couples you mentor and to your kids. 

So, a few months later, here we are with the Brave Marriage Podcast shifting direction a bit. Unlike Season 1 I’ll call it, where there was a quick teaching, an action step, followed by a prayer for your marriage, Season 2, if you will, will be more educational, historical, and hopefully, conversational. I would love to hear stories from you and further understand your experience. I would love to talk to other experts specifically around these topics. And I would love for the upcoming episodes to serve as conversation starters in your own home and Christian communities. 

There’s been a lot of talk in the public square about how everybody is deconstructing everything, and how millennials and younger are losing their faith and what does this mean for the future of the church, and more immediate than that, for our kids? 

But listen, what I’m wondering is, is if we can move beyond that fear stuff? Or perhaps more accurately, as my friend reminded me of yesterday, can we add goodness to the conversation despite our fear? And I’m talking to myself here, too, maybe even more than I’m talking to you right now. I am just tired of adults in the room and the loudest adults in the room peddling fear instead of Hope, because we have a hope, y’all! His name is Jesus! And He has not given us a spirit of fear, other people have, but He hasn’t! He’s given us a spirit of power, and of love, and of self-discipline! 2 Timothy 1:7 And personally speaking, I’m tired of being the adult in the room who’s not peddling fear, but equally as bad, is too afraid to speak up. 

So here we are, diving into marriage and gender roles and healthy relational dynamics because I believe that after all the pruning—after all the deconstruction of so many things that we’ve missed the mark on as a church, myself included—that there is fruit to be found. There is love and a Savior who says in John 10:10, “It’s the thief who comes to do nothing else but to kill and steal and destroy, but I have come that you may have life, and an abundant one at that.” 

So I hope you’ll join me on this journey. On this second season of the Brave Marriage Podcast, if you will, where we’ll dive into marriage dynamics from a biblical perspective, a psychological perspective, and a relational systems perspective to see if we can’t create something better as Christian couples, to see if we can’t engage in relationships that emanate life and hope and healing in a hurting and broken world. 

If you’re looking forward to this series, please leave a rating and review if you’re able on Apple Podcasts. And if not, no worries, I completely understand, and I will see the rest of you back here soon. 

Pressing Pause on the Podcast - Ep. 128

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That’s right, folks. I’m pressing pause on the podcast for the moment. Thank you for sharing a small part of your week with me, and thanks for your understanding after listening to this episode! I’d love to leave you with a gift though…because if last year taught us anything, it’s that life is precious, people are not to be taken for granted, and despite the circumstances that are out of our control, there’s still so much we desire out of life. As such, I’ve created a “Reflection & Life Inventory” guide to help you take stock of last year, the one the lies ahead, and the life you intend to live and look back on with peace, love, and joy.

To access that free guide, visit bravemarriage.com/2021

To stay in touch while the podcast is on pause, visit bravemarriage.com/quiz